• But even without the scripture quoted, God created Satan. How do they ignore such details? Is this cognitive dissonance or something else?

  • Satan doesn’t really appear in the bible, and when he does, he’s just doing some tempting.

    Now, *God*, on the other hand, fucks shit *up*.

  • For those interested in solutions to the problem of evil, here’s a breakdown I wrote for a conflicted guy in r/christianity a while back.

    Solutions within the Christian worldview are called *theodicy* (more spicifically, it refers to solutions that not only explain, but justify evil)

    Some possibilities to consider:

    * Skeptical Theism, aka, “mysterious ways”. God does bad things or allows bad things to happen in order to prevent worse things, or in order to provoke response that is even more good.

    * Augustinian Theodicy, aka, “chain-email-albert-einstein-mic-drop”. God does not allow bad things to happen, because “bad” does not exist. What we experience as “evil” is actually merely the absence of the good.

    * Free Will. God gives agency to creation, such that it can act outside of his plans. Note that this leaves open the problem of “natural evil”, so Free Will is not a complete theodicy on it’s own.

    * Plantinga’s Free Will, aka “a wizard did it”. Only human beings have free will. Everything bad that happens that is not directly attributable to human agency is caused by non-God supernatural entities.

    * Irenaean/Hicks Theodicy, aka, “purgatory-on-Earth”. Evil exists because suffering helps us to achieve moral perfection. Our troubles exist to make us stronger.

    * Finite-God Theodicy, aka, “your premise is wrong”. God is not omnipotent, He does not have the power to stop every bad thing. Our concept of an omnipotent, omniscient, omnitemporal, omnibenevolent God comes more from Aristotle than the Bible anyway.

    * Pandeism, aka, “you oughta try these mushrooms”. Pandeism asserts that, in the act of constructing the Universe, God *became* the Universe. He is still omnipresent and omniscient, but after the act of creation, he is no longer omnipotent, in the sense that he cannot create supernatural effects in the world. Flat Deism, aka, The Clockwork God works effectively the same way.

    * Original Sin/Luther/Calvin Theodicy. It’s all Eve’s fault.

    * Reincarnation Theodicy, aka “hey, guys Buddhism is cool!”. We currently exist in a state of purgation for sins committed in past life/lives.

    * Contrast Theodicy. God made Evil to help us appreciate Good.

    * Aquinas/Afterlife Theodicy, aka, “heaven swamps everything”. God made Evil to give himself something to judge us by, and it is justified by the fact that it is temporary, but the reward is eternal. Finite bad + infinite good = infinite good.

    * Clementine Theodicy, aka, “your other premise is wrong”. This theodicy denies that evil exists in the first place. It asserts that evil is “an illusion” and everything is actually always good.

    * Leibnitz Theodicy, aka, “schroedinger’s morality”. When God created the world he had options, possibilities. For unknown cosmic reasons, none of the possible worlds is all-good. God chose the best one, the one with the least bad in it, but he could not get rid of the bad altogether.

    * Kantian Theodicy/Turning the Tables, aka, “checkmate, philosophers!”. The question is unanswerable because each of the proposed solutions can be seen as forming a contradiction with one of the premises. All of the above solutions are starting with the assumptions “evil exists” “god exists” “god is good”, and then wind up at a conclusion that directly contradicts one of the assumptions, disguised in fancy wording. Therefore the problem is not with any of the solutions, but with the question in itself. Kant asserts that you have to give up one of those three assumptions, there is no other choice.

    Edit: loving the discussion below, you guys are great.

  • /r/facePsalm

  • To be fair ESV translates “evil” as “calamity.” I am not saying one is right or the other but it is possible that ESV is more accurate.

  • It’s like people comparing different versions of D&D rule books.

  • Bible verse aside, supposedly God is all knowing *and* made Lucifer. So… God knew Lucifer would fall before he made him. Kind of a dick move, that.

  • *Starts reading comments…*

    *grabs popcorn*

  • One of my favorite quotes from [Stephen Fry](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B5RtDpva7nE)

    >So, atheism is not just about not believing there‚Äôs a God, but on the assumption there is one, what kind of God is he? It’s perfectly apparent. He’s monstrous, utterly monstrous.

  • Well, it is out of context. Isaiah 45 contains the words of God towards Cyrus, the yet unborn king who destroyed Babylonia. God used him as an anointed to fulfill a prophecy from 200 years before its fulfillment.
    Heaving also read the verses before 45:7, it becomes quite clear that God is stating towards Cyrus, that he has created everything and is thus the righteous and all mighty God. So in context, it should be concluded that God indeed has created the evil as he has created everything that exists, however this does not state that God deliberately causes the evil nor its consequences, given “the evil” or whoever is evil has a free will.
    And the bible literally says that God wants us to worship him out of our own will and heart at so many points that I don’t know where to start (maybe take Deuteronomy 30:19, 20.). Imo it would be quite childish to cling to Ecclesiastes 3, which says that there is an appointed or appropriate time for everything eg that we should act appropriately for certain times and matters, as the only source to say that everything is predetermined and that there is no free will.
    That’s it, I’ve already spent too much time on this.

  • If God, is omnipotent, omnipresent, and omniscient, then he is responsible for everything in the universe from beginning to end.

    If he knows everything, he knew that when he created man and gave him free will that he would sin and bring evil into the world.

    If he is all powerful he could have prevented this or done any other infinite number of things instead but he chose not to.

    Therefore God either created both good and evil, or he is fundamentally different from the way he is usually described.

    Not saying I believe any of it, but that is my understanding of Christian doctrine.

    Edit: After I posted this someone made a VERY good reply about the theological “answers” to this contradiction so I take back what I said about it not being mentioned.

  • Ah Christians, quoting the Bible until you send something back that doesn’t fit their narrative and then “That’s not what God meant!”

  • Okay but guess who created Satan? Big hint: same dude that is claimed to have created everything.

  • I appreciate the well formatted and designed censor blocks, thank you!

  • Well, this conversation seems to be pretty much retorical without much decent bible-knowledge behind it.

    First of all, the translation quote is not the one used by most christians. Evil compared to for example “unhappiness” is not the same.

    Second of all: just by saying that you do one thing, does not mean that u will always do this thing. It is not in Gods character to create or do anything evil. He will though turn the bad things to good, and make use of what he has to let exist. He has to let evil exist. Answer for why is below.

    Third: If you look at the Bible as a whole, much more content talks about that God is the creator of the good in this world. Not the bad. Some truth is held in tention.
    – For example, if God is always Love, can he hate? Yes the love means rejecting evil. A truly good person hates the evil, a truly evil person loves the evil.
    In the same way, GOD might be the one creating the world but the fact that he did not create evil is still true. Evil was a biproduct, an opposite if I may call it that, to the love of God.

    Why is there evil?
    We were not created as Robots, compelled to Love God against our own will. We were given a free will, and therefore, in choosing to not love God, we choose darkness. Darkness is a biproduct of light. If we were to be able to choose to not have light, then we chose Darkness. Satan was not created Evil either, he was created as one of the most honorable angels. Still, the angels also had their choice and therefore Satan, since he was a leader for angels, when choosing to rebell against God he became the leader of those who were Evil. Satans only tools are lies. He twists the truth, like he did with Eve and Adam. He said “EAT FROM THIS FRUIT TO BECOME LIKE GOD” when they were already made in Gods image.

    I still, as a Christian, dont feel like I know the full answer to this, my humble response is given as a effort to try to shed a light on the situation. I believe most Christians would agree with me, and to conclude this comment I would still say; may it be that I dont know in my mind the full truth, I still belive that I find all I need in Jesus, in the relationship with him who calls himself THE truth.
    God bless you, peace out and all that

  • If you Google this issue, there are people who try to explain it as a translation mistake. Still, I think that is a really weak argument.

    Is your God unable to prevent evil or is he unwilling?

  • “The bible says that homosexuality is a sin.”

    “Haven’t you been fucking a married woman? What’s the bible say about that?”

    “Well, you know, that’s different. That passage actually means….”

  • Every religious person’s defense is either “Well if it was fact, it wouldn’t be faith” or “That’s a different version, you’re taking it out of context.”

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